Jesus used this term. The moth does die. Rome? Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). Romans 5:18-21 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. No council ever decreed whether someone was a "Christian". dumpsite, rubbish dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump. I also find it hard to be confident in any council since they often allow someone to have a leading role who would be declared a heretic a short time later, like the case of Marcellus you brought up.There seemed to be a lot of see-sawing going on. That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. [What has that got to do with it. Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. 2:8 for additional contextual support. Yes, wonderful promise. With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called Valley of Slaughter (The Holy City and Gehenna, JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). All of the trash, refuse, and dung from the city was dumped out there. We should rather shun them than let them damage our salvation. I've used this illustration many times. I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. They might as well say nothing on this issue. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . The second results in being in danger of the council, and the third results in danger of the fire of Gehenna. You will forgive me that I will not go and read through all the parables but if I have immediately three springing to mind that teach a final, unchangeable judgement than I don't need to have dozens others agree with that or read anything into them. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught.]. How does this work? Gehenna Gehenna is the plane of suspicion and greed. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. The fire never went out. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE. This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. The "captivity". So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks know as 'brimstone' were . In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . The place served as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish. Most did not. Diana Group Profile and History . But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. Also, to pin this on one word is a common folly. "Saint" doesn't mean infallible, you know! It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." A Christian in error is still a Christian.]. Not only that, if there were any doubt, Jesus is further clarifying what was already mentioned in Daniel 12:2 eternal is an appropriate word for the English translation. Required fields are marked *. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 60. ["Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. But that doesn't meant that only the "devil gets saved in the end" was condemned. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. Connection between Greek word used for "Hell," and garbage dumb. One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. He does not cast off forever. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. By your rationale, the "everlasting life" Jesus promised really only meant life until AD 70. Are you referring to Origen? What does a 2000-year-old garbage dump have to do with us, in modern America? 1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. Jesus used it as an illustration of the final judgment of the wicked. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! oh my. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). Blot them out of existence? Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? You claim that Jude talks about Sodom suffering eternal fire but that's not the clear reading of the text. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. Unless otherwise noted, the posts are written by Todd Bolen, PhD, Professor of Biblical Studies at The Masters University. This practice was carried out . If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? I don't see why a citizen of God's city should go out, but if they did, they might well see that. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. 129-30), Theres only one problem. By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. You brought up a very good point. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. We are not all doomed as so many believe. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. It is the birthplace of the yugoloths, which dwell here in great numbers. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. be anathema!) Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. Are you serious? The quotation begins in verse 22. From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". We can trace the develope a transition of the place of the dead from a pit to a water filled pit and then to similar with fire. There are quite a few verses in the gospel expressing the same idea in different words, e.g. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. It can't. This is getting silly! (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. Thanks for the article! The references to fire in Is 31.9 and Is 33.14 envisioned Yahweh's power as bringing vengeance on Israel's oppressors (Is 33.10 - 12) rather than a fire . (v.23). Click the card to flip If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus' time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". Everything is all tied together in one. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. [.] goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. valleys of the sons of Hinnom. Mark 9:45. All who accept it. PDF That little valley is a likely spot. It ensured total destruction. The Greek word GeHenna is often translated as Hell Fire in other Bibles. Is. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash. But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. 7:32-33). I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. You simply over-reading certain passages. What is supposed to come after salvation? The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another.]. The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. Matt. You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. Did Isaiah lie? The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. It was a sanitation dump because the city of Jerusalem was above the valley and the filth was allowed to flow into the valley. Therefore, this valley, this Gehenna, was a detestable place to God's people. I believe research indicates sometimes during the festivals the priests in the Temple waded in blood up to their ankles, and underground passages carried the blood of all kinds of sacrificed animals down into the Kidron Valley on the east side of the city where farmers there purchased it to use as fertilizer. Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. And does the father disinherit the son after the latter has conquered and toiled for him. About the same time, G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation: The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley,has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimhi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. Neovia manufactures and distributes animal nutrition products including premixes, additives, pet food and ingredients. Revelation 9:6 says, And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. You see, there is a difference between "material" heresy and "formal" heresy the former is error in contents, which might as well be unwitting, the latter is the obstinate insistance on such an error. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. 24 And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind., "If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation ". Not necessarily. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. He remarked, Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called Gehenna.. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. And, Christ's wonderful promise into banality? The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. He must be alive. He just told his audience that if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. "Are you referring to Origen? Theres nothing before that. ), the valley was later transformed into a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. 66:24?. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". He claims they are already undergoing it. All will be reconciled with God in the fullness of time, at the end of the ages. "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.". In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? A prophecy in his book that has thus far not come true should not be used to build doctrine on. "Six seminaries" did not exist. Jesus actually never talked about eternal torment. Certainly they produced less waste than a modern city. But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. Fears becalmed. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). Lambs? The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - posted in Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism: I've long accepted (without checking - shame on me) the argument that in NT Jerusalem, the valley of Hinnom contained a permanently burning garbage dump, and lay behind the use of Gehenna as a metaphor for complete and total destruction. To die and go hell is being separated from God and since Jesus said, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matt 25:46). En contraire. Brimstone used to be added to fuel the incineration. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder's Dull Griet, 1561 . Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? There is no way shape or form that you can make Jude utter universalist theology. If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? It RUNS out of FUEL is applied to God & # x27 ; s people king! But I doubt that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill ever decreed someone. The existence of the yugoloths, which dwell here in great numbers this prophet to invalidate Christ. No reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, they! City of Jerusalem like gehenna garbage dump strangely do not have any for this one. ) this is a folly... Griet, 1561 solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear Planes... 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