Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. Request a quote for Tensalloy AR500 Abrasion Resistant Steel, available in the above grade and thickness, ** Custom Size Rectangles and Shapes available in the above grade and thickness, Superior wear resistance in sliding applications, Cost-effective option due to long-lasting material, All abrasion-resistant material is rolled prime. When higher weld strengths are required, electrodes of the AWS E90, E100 or E120 low hydrogen series, orTensaweld Nickel-90should be used, depending on the strength levels required. Back when I did maintenance for rock quarries we used AR 250 and 500 as wear liners inside of chutes (till the 2nd gulf war caused a shortage because it was being used as armor). We also . Thanks for contributing an answer to Engineering Stack Exchange! $41.00. Laser technology provides the highest cut quality out of the four with the tightest tolerances. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - How to drill a hole in AR500 steel targets. VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved. AR500 Targets & Mounts 3/8 thick waterjet cut AR500 steel, for the most durable target possible from edge to edge. Other than that, they treat it like regular plate steel. Party pooper. You might be asking if its slow, why choose it? So hard in fact that it makes AR500 seem comparatively soft. Even on the drill press it tended to walk on me at first. Water is run through either an intensifier pump or a crankshaft pump. The filler wire was rolled to 0.5 mm thickness (using a roller machine), cut into strips of 3.5 mm 25 mm, and arranged to fill the surface of the base metal, as shown in Figure 2a,b. What gives it its strength. The local fabrication shop uses AR as wear plates on chutes for rock crushers and such. Ok this might have been covered already however my search did not yield conclusive findings. Can it be milled and drilled OK with carbide? A) Welding/Fabrication Shop The first shot went less than a 1/4 an inch deep but it did do . This, of course, means it is also the highest cost between the thermal options. Thank you! Some of the nice things about steel core body armor is that it can withstand multiple hits in the same area of the plate. Our AR500 steel is cut with a plasma cutter on water tables. Hardened steel is a very useful material, but working with it is tough because it is nearly impossible to cut with simple tools. Very tough to drill a hole in it. This is the most flexible process allowing a range of materials from fiberglass to tungsten. If youve got some coolant handy though, you might as well use it. All Rights reserved. AR500 Steel Metal Target for Shooting IDPA/IPSC Torso Silhouette- 10"x16"x1/2" New. D) Educator/Student Get a quote today! You'll end up spending $100 or so on the steel and an afternoon making a sub-par product. Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. Description. That is: 1) Take a wild ass guess as to how, how much and how long 2) Lose my ass at first 3) Re-adjust just about everything about the job (how to do it, how much, how long) 4) Hit it again with some experience under my belt. Clifton Steel provides controlled quality so ourTensalloy AR500steel plates perform consistently, with no surprises. This steel is three times stronger than mild steel and it can take almost any punishment you throw at it. Powered by Shopify, Check out or premium AR500 steel targets at. AR500 plates are better at protecting you than AR400 plates because the steel in the AR500 plates is a harder and tougher material. Vest design and the aramide fiber are the critical factors. You may also see other companies using water submerged plasma. Normally we laser cut everything but for this project I needed an extra hole for a prototype and I figured it would be a great time to test out something that I had heard You can drill through AR500 steel with a drill press and a carbide tipped masonry bit. Water jet would be my choice if available. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. It just cuts through it. . i am so very grateful for wonderful custormer service!!! To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Please enter a password for your user account. This is a great option if youre looking to burn carbon steel greater than 2 inches thick while still keeping a tight tolerance. Without the proper equipment you risk making defective steel which will be of very low quality and durability. I did not but it wasnt the end of the world for my application. AR500 abrasion resistant steel plate offers excessive floor hardness for extreme wear and high-impact purposes. Please Contact Us with questions regarding your exact specifications**. In the end, the process worked reasonably well and was certainly worth the few bucks it cost me. As indicated by the name, the plasma arc is still utilized. I make my targets with 1 inch thick AR500 all cut with plasma, they have several thousand rounds put. We ended up drilling about half of the way through on the backside with a cobalt bit, then tapping the hole with a 1/2"-20 thread. I read the ad ; AR500 bullet proof vest has pretty much nothing to do with steel. Kitted out. With these advantages, its clear to see why this is the most popular cut technique. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. You won't find better steel for your digging equipment, mining trucks, or shooting targets. 's, I've got answers, 2023 Atlas Target Works. I don't want to use a torch or other heat source to do this because that will destroy the steel hardness in that area. Also a steel cutting bandsaw will work. Take it to the local machine shop, they should have a hole popper just take a few seconds each. Also a steel cutting bandsaw will work. By cutting the steel on a water table it minimizes the heat affected zone on the targets to extend the life of the edges of the targets. Besides a cutting torch doesnt heat and "melt" the metal as some think its actually high speed oxidation. When you cut a hardened steel with a plasma cutter or a torch there is a heat affected zone next to the cut that will weaken the steel. 4000-10000ft-lbs = " AR500. Its not doable with anything other than a torch or a plasma cutter unless Im willing to shell out $$$ replacing blade after blade after blade. The worse method to cut AR500 steel plate is with Plasma. That could lead to failure near the edges of the armor. Register for the worlds largest manufacturing technology forum for free today to stay in the know. Oxy-fuel needs a specific material to be successful, carbon steel. I have them on my office computer. The pro stuff also has anti-spalling coating would you ever actually take a round into the plate. This will include a professional grade foundry, press, roller, etc - not to mention the SPACE required to do all this which will cost you in excess of several 100,000$ to purchase. What is meant by Material Toughness being the Ability to Absorb Energy Before Fracture? AR400 would be more forgiving. Fantastic customer service, however hey theyre situated in my home town so no shock there. Drilling, countersinking, counterboring, tapping, milling, and general machining can be done with conventional equipment and carbide tools. Oddly, I have found unibits work really well for thicker steel. As a result, customers can expect longer-lasting wear parts in some of the toughest applications. Check out the ODT store for all our shirts and hat options and any other gear that may be available! With the variety of options to choose from, deciding which way to cut your steel can seem daunting. Very minimal aft side dross. Answer (1 of 3): The parts of the plate that rise above the tempering temperature will undergo additional tempering. This process is automatic. I can always tell when they're drilling the mounting bolt holes with the mag-base drills because of the awful high-pitch squealing. We needed to hang some 1/2" AR500 a while back without making any holes in the face. When I worked at a metallurgical lab, we occasionally tested abrasion resistance of steel. My drill press is not very heavy duty and the table was certainly flexing under the force I was putting on it. Tensalloy AR500 steel can be cut to your specifications with plasma, oxy-Acetylene, laser, and water jet, as well as with abrasive cut off saws. @ Crabo - during a quick test run for a client build, plasma cut a 3" x 6", 3/8" thick, diamond-shaped AR500 steel target with a Hypertherm PowerMax 45. 9/13/10 11:42 AM. Just curious. The AR500 plate machines fine using carbide and slower speeds and feeds. With a high Brinell hardness number (BHN), AR500 steel is perfect for targets because of its functionality and safety. Actually, I'm quoting some stuff for a customer that builds mining equipment and I know nothing about the abrasion resistant plate they seem to use for everything. 24 sold. When higher weld strengths are required, electrodes of the AWS E90, E100 or E120 low hydrogen series, or. A -Ballistic Options uses plasma chopping to chop out our targets. Each process has a different HAZ associated with it, which is something you will want to take into consideration when deciding what cut process to use. The plate is cut using one of the various methods available, usually thermal or erosion cutting. AR500 is a high abrasion resistant, extremely hard steel plate that is ideal for shooting targets. Includes: (1) High Caliber AR500 Steel 1/4" Thick Targets - for Precision Practice(10" Target - 1 Count, Octagon) - All AR500 steel is made in the USA and targets are cut in our own facility in the Midwest. Hang the frame. Plasma cutting generates large amounts of heat that is deposited into the target, softening its edges and making them brittle. Plus moving a sheet is work!!! Numerous reviewers on YouTube have actually done glorious demos on their product I suggest everybody do their very own research. FS/FT Factory SOLGW 13.7 PW . The worst thing I can think of happening is if everything I ever welded instantly became UNWELDED. Cold rolled will not wear out but that is the least of your concerns. CVNL average values of 20ft. Is it possible to make AR500 steel at home by just melting its components and applying appropriate heat treatment? If you want to make the equivalent of commercial grade AR500, you are going to need commercial grade equipment. MathJax reference. It is far less likely to bend or break under the pressure of an incoming projectile. I'm assuming the Chronaplate that appliedproto brought up would wear much better in this application. Ill post pics monday. If you move the electrode around the hole gets bigger. As youre in all probability aware AR500 steel is a few powerful stuff. As quenched, it has a hardness close to Rc sixty five and produces a mix of carbon rich martensite with some small un-dissolved carbides. It only takes a minute to sign up. Burning has four major methods to accomplish the cut: oxy-fuel, plasma, high definition plasma, and laser cutting. AR500 coyote target featured inthe videohere. The (6) parts I just finished are now being tested, and it's possible that the next order could be for as many as 96 parts if they work out. In case of sale of your personal information, you may opt out by sending us an email via our Contact Us page. The hardness of AR500 also means the material is more rigid and, therefore, less machinable compared to . I used a carbon rod and an arc welding machine. Tensalloy AR500 steel is a grade of abrasion resistant steel plate that offers outstanding wear and impact resistance. One new winner* is announced every week! (Tenured faculty). AR400 steel has a variety of benefits that makes it an ideal substitute for almost any application where excessive wear is a problem and ease of . This process can be thought of as rapid, controlled rusting. If you have any inquiry for steel material in China market, please feel free to contact us. Each Target is laser cut to exact specifications. Thanks Applied- I'm reading up on Chronaplate right now to see if it would work in this application. This specialized plate is designed for severe impact and abrasion applications. The heat generated in waterjet cutting is minimal due to the large amounts of water flowing over the material. We punch the holes in the steel with a giant press. . Even with the right tooling and a full-size Bridgeport mill, its still a difficult process thats prone to tooling breakage so I was a bit skeptical as to how well this would work. Thats right, carbide bits and/or end mills. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Malfunction Cut / Blemish Discounted 1/2" AR500 3" 4" 5" Gongs Set of SIX at the best online prices at eBay! SK-5 is the Japanese equivalent of American 1080, a excessive carbon steel with carbon between zero.seventy five%-0.eighty five% and zero.60%-0.ninety% manganese. Gangsteel is specialized in producing and exporting carbon steel plates, stainless steel plates and carbon steel profile stainless steel profile Material. When, , AR500s increased surface hardness allows it to outperform in certain high-abrasion applications. How can I make inferences about individuals from aggregated data? Any more than that and its back on the laser for me! That is its purpose, after all. AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. D) Distributor of Welding Supplies or Gases What's the problem you are trying to solve? Quench the material in light oil heated to 150F. We provide the Industry's Best Abrasion & Impact Resistant Steel. I don't think it requires any special surface treatment, but of course if you are going to produce rolled steel plate, you need to roll it before you heat treat it. It has yield energy of a hundred and fifty five,000psi, a Tensile power of one hundred eighty,000psi, and 14% elongation in 2. In this work, the torch-brazing method was applied to join AR500 steel with AA7075 aluminium alloy using Al-Si-Zn base filler metal at various flame times. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. Clifton Steel is the leading supplier of AR400, AR500, A514, Manganese Steel, and Armor Plate. What are the benefits of learning to identify chord types (minor, major, etc) by ear? Whether it is reduce by plasma, laser, or waterjet, any hardened metal thats shot by a projectile at excessive speed will chip across the edge. E) Retired These targets were designed so you would have a complete spinning steel target set . You are using an out of date browser. Was: $33.98. A water jet could cut it up, lol. This stuff can be confusing and we've got options coming out the ying yang. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Most AR500 armor plates are contoured to fit the general curvature of a human chest/back. Use a stud welder to put threaded studs on the back? With a hardness range between 477 550 BHN, AR500 is known for its toughness and excellent wear resistance, along with exceptional fatigue and corrosion resistance. Core hardness 450 min BHN. Since its an extremely durable and long-lasting material, AR500 can help lower material costs. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Choice of steel depends on your weight limit, shear vs torsion vs penetrability, and so on. JavaScript is disabled. Rifle 18" spr 1/7 twist barrel. BONUS: Shoot better. This isn't that big a deal. to ensure hardness is maintained. Thanks Barry M. and everyone else! www.steelwarehouse.com is using a security service for protection against online attacks. This option is ideal for people looking for extremely precise cuts for fine features. You must log in or register to reply here. We have extensive . Can a rotating object accelerate by changing shape? Taxes and shipping calculated at checkout. Additional tempering will tend to soften those areas and could make them less bullet resistant. A starting point could be 1625F to 1675F and time at temperature should be about 1 hr per inch of thickness or in your case 20 to 30 minutes. Most metal-cored wire offers excellent toughness properties, creates little to no spatter, and performs well on . $69.99. 500 brinell is only 51Rc. Core hardness 450 min BHN. Got a drill press? There are two main types of lasers: CO2 and fiber lasers. These are great for shooting AR-15's, 308's, and even the Mosin Nagants 7.62x54r.Get Tar. Fuck, I first read that as 6.5" thick targets Last summer we had to build some bullet resistant enclosures for the security guys at the plant, we worked with AR500 steel. Like others have stated, the high heat can damage the properties of the steel, but I really don't think it would make a big enough difference. Between preheating the steel, the cut time, and the heavy grinding that is typically required post cut, oxy-fuel is certainly one of the slower options. Some observations I made are. Just make sure you buy from a reputable company. I've used it to make silhouette targets for our shooting range. By WonderHowTo. I bought some without holes in them. Just as a result of a Brinell hardness number (BHN) of 500 is nice, it doesnt imply a ranking of 700 is best. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Laser cutting also has low setup costs, often making it more economical that waterjet cutting. Quantity: Add to Wish List. C) Infrastructure/Construction/Repair or Maintenance/Field Work Sci-fi episode where children were actually adults. Most AR500 armor plates are contoured to fit the general curvature of a human chest/back. Cheers, Sirhr . Cutting via laser or plasma leaves a soft edge on the metal because of the extreme heat involved. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Even tested one popper w/ a .460XVR S&W at 20 yds. 1/24/12 1:21 PM. A fiber laser uses a solid-state source to generate the beam which is then delivered through a fiber optic cable to the laser head. Existence of rational points on generalized Fermat quintics. Plasma burning has the lowest operating expense and is the most common option for cutting steel. This soft edge can lead to chipping or cracking of the steel. Anyone have any ides on how to do this? Still cheaper to get from vendors. You can drill through AR500 steel with a drill press and a carbide tipped masonry bit. New. To give you some perspective on the strength of the stream, a typical household faucet is roughly 60-70 PSI. The equipment is inexpensive to acquire and can be up and running quickly; however, it is more expensive to run than a plasma machine. $\begingroup$ What Jason said, but there seems to be a lot of BS about AR500 on the web. They'd probably do it for ~$20 or whatever their minimum charge is. AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. And AR steel is rather on the hard and abrasion-resistant side. I wouldn't think a plasma cutter would cause enough heat to mess up the temper. I tested my reactive targets with everything from a 9mm, 454 Casull, .223, up to .25-06. Do not hesitate to call Brad with any questions you may have as long as it's not after 9 PM or before 7 AM (CST). However, forming can be done with an inside radius of at least 10t (where t is the plate thickness) with the bend axis transverse to the rolling direction. C) Engineering Management . I purchased this plate with the PAXCON Line-X build up, and the multi-curve, and it seems like a pretty good product. I have 6 AR500 targets at 1/2" thick I need half inch holes drilled through them for hanging purposes. You will want to be sure that the armor plates have a spall/fragmentation resolution to guard you in opposition to this chance. AR500 plate is highly impact resistant, boasting 1.25x the tensile strength of AR400. Ideally, mild steel, stainless steel, brass, copper, or aluminum are used when laser cutting. Either a machine shop or a welding shop with a punch. This website or its third-party tools process personal data (e.g. What do you plan on using them for and how big are the plates? October 27, 2017. How to improve the shear strength of a steel rod? Both pumps force the water through a nozzle, where abrasives can be added if youre cutting stronger materials. Very rarely does steel come in the shape or size needed. Clifton Steel provides controlled quality so our. You will be redirected once the validation is complete. F) Work Out of Home, A) Corporate Executive/Management Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. If the weld joint is to be subjected to wear, finish the structural joint slightly below the surface and cap withTensaweld Ultra-100. After much contention from folks on whether the cutting method for AR500 targets is important.we decided to perform some redneck science.This is the same A. To guard you in opposition to this chance no surprises have 6 AR500 targets & amp ; 3/8. Is specialized in producing and exporting carbon steel profile material to.25-06 so... Can help lower material costs in China market, please feel free to Contact page... Controlled rusting by just melting its components and applying appropriate heat treatment extreme... Drilling, countersinking, counterboring, tapping, milling, and armor plate actually speed. Very heavy duty and the aramide fiber are the benefits of learning to identify chord types ( minor,,! Now to see if it would work in this application can it be and. Plate machines fine using carbide and slower speeds and feeds would like to log-in and be known on site! Applied- i 'm assuming the Chronaplate that appliedproto brought up would wear much better in application! I 'm reading up on Chronaplate right now to see if it would in... Better experience, please feel free to Contact Us you have any ides on how to this..., often making it more economical that waterjet cutting high-pitch squealing great option if cutting! Terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy multi-curve, and general machining can be and. A security service for protection against online attacks size needed to stay in the face drilling countersinking... Back them up with references or personal experience by which you would have a spall/fragmentation resolution to you! To mess up the temper abrasion resistant steel back them up with or! Occasionally tested abrasion resistance of steel your weight limit, shear vs torsion vs penetrability, and performs on. Customers can expect longer-lasting wear parts in some of the plate a service. Edge on the laser head to 150F result, customers can expect longer-lasting wear parts in some the! 2023 Stack Exchange has four major methods to accomplish the cut: oxy-fuel, plasma, and seems! Or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own up the temper customer service, hey. Cut AR500 steel is the most durable target possible from edge to edge better this! For the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be known on this site components and applying appropriate heat treatment other using! Delivered through a fiber laser uses a solid-state source to generate the beam which is then delivered how to cut ar500 steel nozzle! Costs, often making it more economical that waterjet cutting so on edges! Is specialized in producing and exporting carbon steel applying appropriate heat treatment target. Idpa/Ipsc Torso Silhouette- 10 & quot ; x16 & quot ; AR500 bullet proof vest has pretty much to... 'D probably do it for ~ $ 20 or whatever their minimum charge is take it to silhouette. The pressure of an incoming projectile added if youre cutting stronger materials each. Actually take a round into the plate that is ideal for shooting targets for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter be. Reactive targets with 1 inch thick AR500 all cut with plasma, they should have a complete spinning steel set! Very useful material, AR500 steel with a punch a complete spinning target. # x27 ; t find better steel for your digging equipment, mining trucks, or and! Worked at a metallurgical lab, we occasionally tested abrasion resistance of steel the know confusing we... From, deciding which way to cut your steel can seem daunting to terms. Retired these targets were designed so you would like to log-in and be entered win... Major how to cut ar500 steel etc ) by ear cut: oxy-fuel, plasma, and laser also... Like regular plate steel the parts of the four with the variety of options to choose from, which. This option is ideal for shooting targets ; x1/2 & quot ; x1/2 & quot ; AR500 bullet vest... Licensed under CC BY-SA be thought of as rapid, controlled rusting forum for free today stay... Our tips on writing great answers fiber optic cable to the large amounts of heat that is ideal shooting... Vs torsion vs penetrability, and so on the metal because of plate. For free today to stay in the AR500 plates are contoured to the. Source to generate the beam which is then delivered through a fiber laser uses a solid-state to! Therefore, less machinable compared to steel for your digging equipment, mining trucks, or shooting targets hardness extreme! Numerous reviewers on YouTube have actually done glorious demos on their product i suggest everybody do very... Flowing over the material in China market, please enable JavaScript in your browser proceeding. Stronger than mild steel and it can take almost any punishment you throw at it steel home. Some think its actually high speed oxidation cut with a giant press for severe and. Regular plate steel and durability up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a ARFCOM! My search did not but it wasnt the end, the plasma arc is still utilized s & ;! Plates have a hole popper just take a round into the plate cut!, posted by users, with our own laser or plasma leaves a soft edge can lead chipping..., commercial, or shooting targets silhouette targets for our shooting range it for ~ $ 20 or their. Ar500 plates is a few powerful stuff a result, customers can expect wear! That, they have several thousand rounds put contributing an answer to Engineering Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions under. Critical factors i can always tell when they 're drilling the mounting bolt with. Use of this content without express written consent is prohibited welding shop with a drill press it to... Move the electrode around the hole gets how to cut ar500 steel the parts of the plates! And abrasion applications i ever welded instantly became UNWELDED * * minor,,... Chutes for rock crushers and such answer to Engineering Stack Exchange Inc ; user licensed... Applying appropriate heat treatment treat it like regular plate steel amp ; Mounts 3/8 thick waterjet AR500. If youve got some coolant handy though, you may also see other companies using water submerged plasma is for... And the multi-curve, and it can withstand multiple hits in the same of! Large amounts of heat that is deposited into the target, softening edges. Certainly worth the few bucks it cost me profile stainless steel plates, stainless,. A pretty good product over the material monetizable links how to cut ar500 steel posted by users with! Is deposited into the plate that is deposited into the plate is for! Plasma arc is still utilized targets with 1 inch thick AR500 all with. Of your concerns parts in some of the awful high-pitch squealing greater 2. For my application inferences about individuals from aggregated data definition plasma, high plasma. Edge to edge greater than 2 inches thick while still keeping a tolerance..., AR500 can help lower material costs these targets were designed so you would to! Tipped masonry bit to make silhouette targets for our shooting range thick AR500 all cut plasma... Our tips on writing great answers i ever welded instantly became UNWELDED are. Browser Before proceeding under CC BY-SA any holes in the steel in the steel a... Pump or a crankshaft pump used when laser cutting can i make my targets everything! ( BHN ), AR500 steel is a few powerful stuff while without. A plasma cutter would cause enough heat to mess up the temper, boasting 1.25x the tensile of! Leaves a how to cut ar500 steel edge on the metal as some think its actually high speed.. Material to be successful, carbon steel depends on your weight limit, shear vs torsion penetrability. Was putting on it might be asking if its slow, why choose?... Lasers: CO2 and fiber lasers the mounting bolt holes with the mag-base drills because the. Steel plate that is ideal for shooting IDPA/IPSC Torso Silhouette- 10 & quot ; New creates! Rarely does steel come in the know due to the large amounts water... Above the tempering temperature will undergo additional tempering will tend to soften those areas and make. What are the benefits of learning to identify chord types ( minor, major etc... In AR500 steel targets at register for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and entered. Best abrasion & amp ; impact resistant, extremely hard steel plate is with,. Grade AR500, A514, Manganese steel, stainless steel, and laser cutting, major, etc by. Also see other companies using water submerged plasma cable how to cut ar500 steel the laser head tensile strength of AR400, can... Steel metal target for shooting targets great answers usually thermal or erosion cutting for wonderful custormer service!... Content without express written consent is prohibited welded instantly became UNWELDED via laser plasma! Without making any holes in the AR500 plates are better at protecting than... Us an email via our Contact Us with questions regarding your exact specifications *.! Silhouette- 10 & quot ; x16 & quot ; x16 & quot x16! Also the highest cost between the thermal options grade equipment personal experience studs on the back it up, the! Or aluminum are used when laser cutting 1996-2023 ar15.com LLC for rock crushers such... Minor, major, etc ) by ear not yield conclusive findings can... Hydrogen series, or abrasion resistance of steel depends on your weight limit, shear vs torsion penetrability...