Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HP yard today we're talking about the mysterious elusive majestic Mystic Mountain Lion. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. More recently, in 2011, a mountain lion roamed Connecticut before being hit and killed by a car. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. And so a mountain lion is actually quite large right. Peter Biello: And Carl before you continue I think Patrick Tate just give me a second. Just. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. Well let me ask maybe Pat and Rick about this. That's the real story is they can't follow up on every one of these sightings. Peter Biello: Well John thanks very much for the story really appreciate it. A lot of times. It was a 140-pound male mountain lion, the first confirmed in Connecticut in more than 100 years. Lots of people have stories about them, people have them on their game cameras I mean its kind of a thing. You know you have to have a license and it's hard to get that license a license to own a mountain lion. N.H.'s Fish and Game department says there's no proof mountain lions live in the state, yet residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. That's what we're seeing is dispersing mountain lions from the West who are just making their way through. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. And there are thousands of mountain lions killed every year legally through hunting, and there have been untold tens of thousands of mountain lions killed by hunters over the last hundred years, says Mark Elbroch, the Puma Program Director for Panthera, a global wild cat conservation organization, So even the folks who live with mountain lions still have a fancy and see something thats not there to me thats incredible.. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction. Sam Evans-Brown: One in fact Helena silver in that sort of tome that Rick van de Poll read from at the beginning is she. Want to put this to to Patrick Tate who may have heard some some info or info from listeners like you about these these these cats. We have evidence and as biologists we would find it quite exciting to find that evidence of one in the state. But Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence, Right? Michael Brindley is our program manager our producers our Jessica Hunt and Christina Phillips and our theme music was composed by Bob Lord. Rick shaking his head so Rick now correct me please. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. The views expressed in this program are those of the individuals and not those of an HP are its board of trustees or its underwriters. No doubt in my mind it was. #4. So I learned about what Rick just reported through a heart of heart of New Hampshire a letter and. Kansas officials think a mountain lion recently roamed through Shawnee County. Seems reasonable! We discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. They create these scrapes where theyre communicating with each other with scent. We'd love to have you in the queue. There's no logic for why they'd be listed as an endangered species. I mean they're a survivor. Rick van de Poll: 80 90. Can you look into this picture. Almost all species disperse greater distances than females. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. And I have to use that word allegedly because there is so much dispute about what people see and what they actually see. Fear for others and those two polarizing opinions on the situation is what I believe brings out mystique and Sam you know I take kind of a long view on this. The trouble with accepting every reported sighting as a confirmed mountain lion is that there are so many mistaken identifications. John Holt's ideas were at first dismissed but he refused to be silent. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. The DNA the DNA that they were able to pull from the cat suggested that it was a dispersed mountain lion that came. This is a machine-generated transcript, and may contain errors. Using DNA and physical evidence, state environmental officials said they determined that the animal . OK. Rick van de Poll: Rick and I would add that if a mountain lion male takes up residence and successfully finds a female as pets there's gonna be a lot more evidence there will be like deer carcasses up in trees and territorial marking and claw marks and tracks and it you know dispersal is gonna be very tough to see or observed but residential parrots a totally different story. Kyle I think about Rick Tate wants to jump in here. They get a lot of media attention but compared to the the amount of times that a mountain lion could attack a person but doesn't because they don't typically view us as prey. Give today. But no proof was offered. There's always been physical evidence to prove those situations like hair or fur scat hair prints pictures of the animal print scat hair. Its closest living relative is the cheetah. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. And the cougar embodies that. So Michael follows with the question. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. The report came in from a conservation officer. So so it is possible in Maine to still to to to have one but you have to be sort of professional handler as it were. They kill big animals. I believe I saw one that's fine and I'm not looking for an immediate story. Here she is talking about how to identify a mountain lion. Thank you very much for listening. Do you get a lot of these these these things that end up being hoaxes. Sam Evans-Brown: So I just had two thoughts which is that we hear a lot of these stories and all of us here have heard these stories. The New Hampshire lion has become something of the state's own Big Foot, commonly discussed and rumored but never confirmed; at least, not since the 1850s, when the last mountain lion in the . Are there other powers that be worried that scary mountain lions will scare off people from camping in New Hampshire. We had six copies printed out each. Okay. So when we hear mountain lion there's also cougar there's wild cat there's Bobcat which is not a mountain lion maybe Patrick could you sort of spell out the different terms which are synonymous and which are completely different animals. Patrick Tate: Yes. Sam what's the incentive for the government to deny allegedly. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. Yes and you want to share what you learned. I saw that had this giant the bobcat had this giant sweeping which is John Bobcat don't have big sweeping tails. Patrick Tate: So I agree with what Sam said in part that their ability to go undetected for amount of time but ultimately it was detected. Right. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. And so far we have not had any positive mark lion scats or any DNA. Novartis sold $1.1 billion worth of Gilenya in the U.S. last year, a 19% drop from 2021 that was caused in part by generic competition, according to . Peter Biello: And that will make identification for a layperson rather difficult. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. However, dispersing western mountain lions have left evidence as close as Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. There is some information that suggests that it spent a portion of its time in Massachusetts near the Claiborne reservoir. And as the biologist who's gonna stand on this and if I'm going to say this is a proven picture I need to be able to stand on it so soundly and have the evidence so I going to go through it with a fine tooth comb kept picking pieces apart trying to answer these pieces. So maybe a good pet for you but not for your neighbor if you just stop by unannounced. Sam. Sam Evans-Brown: So Tim so this cat's been been referenced a couple of times I think we should talk about it specifically lay the whole story out for folks who haven't heard the story because it's actually I think really indicative of a lot of stuff for talking about. Peter Biello: Ok. She is renowned for tracking. Well just that I have evidence and it was not it was denied by fishing game at the time and I you know there's I don't need to prove to anybody that I saw one just like some of your callers said okay. Despite numerous reports, the NH Fish and Game Department continues to have no physical evidence of mountain lion presence in the state. Now again I don't know that there's anything to that. Caller: Well I think Patrick I recognized your name. They absolutely do. SYCAMORE, Ill. (AP) A mountain lion that was struck and killed last weekend along a northern Illinois highway will be analyzed by biologists seeking to uncover the rare animal's origins, state . Patrick Tate: Okay. State officials confirmed the presence of a mountain lion near the Quabbin Reservoir in the late 1990s. Mike Guyton pressure was almost Greyhound like very muscular large back legs on it and the coloration on it was almost an orange brownish orange color and so I stop and I look at this thing in the field and as the animal looks at me the face was very chiseled definitely not a bobcat. Peter Biello: Yeah. But if you do if you think you're looking at a wild Puma their tail is very thick and especially in the winter is very thick and ponderous looking. The tail leave is a giveaway but not everybody gets to see the tail. There's no attraction. Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. Rick van de Poll: Absolutely. I would just suggest that in my experience as a reporter covering this covering this issue for a few years at least at what point do we reach a certain critical mass for lack of a better term of accounts where I'm not to suggest that you guys aren't taking this possibility seriously. They create these big latrines that are very obvious. Home; Archivos. Fish and Wildlife Service decided all of the cougars, pumas, and mountain lions in the country are actually the same species, and that species hasnt had a breeding population anywhere near the Northeast for at least 70 years. It traveled all the way from from you know Minnesota to New York without being so seen Patrick take. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. Thanks for a great thanks. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Have you seen one. Wed love to be part of the first verified sighting. Peter Biello: Give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 you can also send us an email exchange at an HP morgue. It was really muscular looking cat I mean is that like a side angle to me. By, March 2023 Fund Drive Rules and Regulations, Persons with disabilities who need assistance accessing NHPR's FCC public files, please contact us at publicfile@nhpr.org. If youve got photo trap evidence of a Mountain Lion, send it in, and we'll send it along to the appropriate state or federal agency! Theres a project called the Cougar Network that tracks verified sightings, and they are all around us: Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine, New York and New Brunswick have all had verified sightings over the past 20 years or so. But I do think that it's appropriate that a fishing game agency would recognize verifiable proof if they could. I was at the Sentinel as a reporter there for about four years and during that time I probably wrote close to a half dozen stories or so on this topic including a lengthy feature at one point that in which I spoke to several people from around the banana region claimed to have seen mountain lions that at one time or another. I live pretty much on the town line of Greenfield just a couple of miles down in the Greenfield. In Vermont, it was 1881. And now that everyone and their mother has a remote camera in their back yard its just so, so unlikely that there are resident, breeding mountain lions in New England that are living invisibly among us, he says, Its become Big Foot.. Really appreciate it. Patrick Tate: And there's one other way to model that is the same animal. However the scarring on the trees did not and the angles were off. I mean it wasn't your idea. Patrick Tate: I would say well when social media first started they picked up the hoaxes became much more prevalent in the last four or five years hoaxes have died down completely. Residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. Pat do they typically just move around a lot. So for me as a person who's had the Bobcats right off my grits similar carries sticks to a bobcat The Long Tail obviously very different but those facial markings were overlapping for me. Think you've seen a mountain lion? And I was probably about a half a mile from downtown all village on the right. Part II. Do they travel. Early in the morning. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. Second when I when they did forward it from Wyoming to to Michigan you know this was coming right from sample 18 and 19 had no remarkable differences from known mountain lions from Michigan or Wyoming. John. And still the the folks there did weren't able to come up with it with 100 percent certainty what deposited that scat. For evidence of a free-roaming, wild and native mountain lion, we must look back to 1874. That's next time on one day. The last catamount in Vermont is finally, officially, certainly dead. Peter Biello: Oh okay. Oh you saw him online. Somewhere the way they travel the things they do they're going to leave evidence. By Eric Orff. Is that typically what was happening there. Caller: And the more I thought about it the color of it it was definitely not a bobcat. Our guests today Patrick Tate New Hampshire Fish and Game Wildlife biologist Sam Evans Brown host of an HP podcast outside in. Every other Friday on Morning Edition NHPRs Sam Evans-Brown tracks down answers to questions about the environment and outdoors for our listeners in a segment we call Ask Sam.. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. Caller: It had just left that field and was out. 50 feet above the most. I have one that's more elaborate than that. There's never, ever, ever, ever been a documented case of a black mountain lion. So so do what you can get to do what you can to get proof. Patrick Tate: Nice talk to you too. So now what's going on. If so that's for us as an agency. Rick van de Poll: Well a report that you know as John Harrigan up north has in co-ops County for about 15 years I kept track of reports and people would call me and tell me where they saw the mountain lion they thought they saw it and it varied right from you know downtown villages all the way to remote highlands of the North Country and and everywhere in between. Patrick Tate: I've from all the situations I've read and learned about wildlife. Thank you very much for being here. Ive received pictures of dogs at odd angles, says Tate. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. OK. So the whole media hype about how scary mountain lions are should should go away immediately and that would be that I think the major thrust of educating folks about these casualties vs.. Sam Evans-Brown: Sam go ahead. In latest school funding trial, state attorneys argue NH districts' budgets are bloated, Lawmakers, advocates, families in NH react to Biden Admin's proposed Title IX change, Give Back NH: The New England Grassroots Environment Fund, NHs housing crisis is pushing more older adults to seek help. So hey, just me shooting from the hip, maybe there are a couple mountain lions skulking about. I've seen him in the woods and that was not a bobcat but I was looking at. Today she talked with us a little bit before the show about why the mountain line is so compelling and why we want it to be part of our world. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? Mountain lion DNA was recovered from a Petersham, Mass., close to the New Hampshire border, after a 2016 incident in which a horse was injured. For starters, part of the confusion might come from the fact that the eastern cougar was taken off the endangered species list earlier this year. Have you heard stories do you have questions about the mountain line. Let us know your story and share your photos! You've got you've got biologists right who are trying to make their make their way in the world make a career if you are the biologists who confirmed a sighting of mountain lions in the state that would be very good for you like you would be all over the news. But you've done some reporting on this. Part II. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. I think that you probably are. You saw what you saw. New Hampshire Public Radio | And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. Peter Biello: Hmm. Patrick Tate: So it's very typical. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. for some excitement. What's interesting about Bobcats is here in the Northeast we have some very large bobcats. And the second question is this a behavior mountain lions exhibit. So what counts as verifiable evidence? Had great trees behind it beautiful ferns on the ground so it brought me down on the site and the ferns on the ground matched. BUT THAT SAID, Id love to be proven wrong. Can we go to the site. Since then, there have been a handful of confirmed mountain lion sightings in the Northeast, although most have been thought to be escaped captive animals. The last documented individuals in the entire Northeast were killed in New Brunswick , Canada, in 1932, and Maine in 1938. lewis structure for ch2cl. We did a short segment about mountain lion sightings earlier this year and and after which I was sent a photo and also a video recording that was mostly just audio because it was so dark the photo just a quick reverse Google image search you can put images online and see where else where else they've been posted revealed that the photo had been taking out taken out in Wyoming and has been used you know hundreds of times to claim and the person who sent it to me said it had been taken New Hampshire. He writes As a farmer I come across many outdoorsman looking to hunt our property had a conversation with one who believed very strongly that we had mountain lions in New Hampshire. Sam Evans-Brown: Well and I think and the last takeaway here is everyone I think probably agrees that any possible sightings that have been seen. How far were you from this cat. And here we're talking about in this situation we're talking about it migrated from the West. Patrick Tate: It became a very interesting investigation over time because it started becoming. So so they're just a very resilient species and they're pretty they're pretty neat. I looked at the picture and asked me what do you see in the picture and I wrote back. Well thanks for sharing. You don't know what's going on. So there is definitely no downward pressure by anyone. Well let's talk a little bit about that. So for those reasons I don't believe the standards are too high the amount of game cameras out on the landscape to record images department alone through contracts had over 150 throughout the state biologists go through various deer yards throughout the year. If you missed part of today's program listen to the exchange. Tim Yeah. The exchange is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. And so I just wanted to share my share my experience with you guys and it was pretty awesome to see if you get to see one albeit it was in the brush. Caller: It had to be a mountain lion convinced I was about 30. And we want to know your stories if you have them 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 or email exchange at an HP bar dot org we'll talk about conspiracy theories when we come back. Caller: Yeah. Patrick Tate: No downward pressure at all I think actually Sean turned up and we found the evidence there a number of people would finally say finally we can put this debate to bed. And I saw you cat about four feet long from nose to tail come across from the water across the road and just leap over a six foot perimeter fence in a single bound. He told me that on one of his many scouting trips for Black Bear he found a deer carcass up in a tree. I don't see the hoaxes anymore at that level. The last known mountain lion killed in New Hampshire is displayed at the Woodman Museum in Dover. I wasn't employed as biologists at the time of a situation that's been reported but so I started digging into this report and spoke with another wildlife biologist with the agency and said Do you know anything about this. Peter Biello: So Rick seems like you agree that the tail is a big giveaway whether or not it's a mountain lion Absolutely. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. So you want identifiable backgrounds. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. I was a Bobcat we saw it and I have a picture of it. And it was unmistakable. When they were landing or taking off and it seems like it's been there for like. brings a lot of. Mike you're on the air. The one confirmed case, sometimes referred to as the " Connecticut Mountain Lion " happened in June 2011 when an SUV struck and killed a cougar in Milford. Which which I think Pat and I have both experienced. We live around Cold Springs Campground and it was undeniably a mountain lion. So give us a call now. Peter Biello: We got an e-mail question from Robert in Epsom who asks are sightings or encounters with these big cats less dangerous here where they're passing through than out west where those same mountain lines might be establishing territory Rick. Pelosi story here we go. They sent it already. We're gonna cue you up and bring into the program listeners in just a moment but I want to ask about the role that Mountain Lions play in the ecosystem we've been talking a lot about mountain lions traveling and being sort of hard to track as they move. When the federal Endangered Species Act came along, the Eastern Cougar (Puma concolor cougar), the subspecies of Mountain Lon ti hat orgi inally occurred Mountain lions leave a lot of sign. So I want to start the program with a comment from someone who is not in the studio with us today. PublishedNovember 16, 2018 at 6:16 AM EST. Don't miss your chance to win three two thousand dollar gas gift cards at any station of your choice not to mention the grand prize twenty five thousand dollars toward a new car. The great thing about pictures isn't the animal itself it's the background. We're gonna talk about sightings in this part of the program as well we'd love to hear your story. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. State officials have said, over and over in recent years, that the eastern mountain lion has been completely wiped out from the Northeast. Pat ruse and he was sampling doing DNA samples from cats in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. He studied Politics and Spanish at Bates College, and before reporting was variously employed as a Spanish teacher, farmer, bicycle mechanic, ski coach, research assistant, a wilderness trip leader and a technical supporter. You could trace that was this same cat from point to point to point. Thanks for taking my call. So they're scary. So for our scientists to do the lumping and whatnot. Its actually fairly reasonable to believe that mountain lions do, at least, pass through occasionally. We speculate they dont want us to screw up tourism we dont know whats going on. Peter Biello: Worth mentioning if we're scaring anybody question a mysterious mountain lions lurking perhaps in someone's backyard. But having read a bit of information about his cougar there are a darker subspecies. 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